Talk: Starfleet ranks

VOY provisional ranks[]

The images need to be updated. The auctions a while back revealed that the edge and slashes on the pins are actually silver, while the background is still gold. --Kevin W.^{•Talk to me} 19:17, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of these, I had a question: Does any other character aside from Chakotay use this provisional rank insignia (right)? I ask because, since it's been established that Chakotay is a full Commander (See: Talk:Chakotay/archive#His rank), we should be referring to that rank insignia as denoting Commander, not Lt. Commander, if he was indeed the only one seen wearing it.

Edit: Just realized the talk page of that image raised the same issue, way back in 2008! And looking over Voyager's personnel list and the linked talk page, I'm pretty sure no one else ever wore this insignia. Any objections to me changing the article to reflect this? With a note below explaining the situation, of course, to avoid another lengthy talk page discussion. - MK (^t/_c) 10:25, December 25, 2015 (UTC)

According to The Star Trek Encyclopedia 3rd Edition it is the rank of Lt. Commander Otto Vonbacon ❯❯❯ Talk 23:10, October 21, 2017 (UTC)

DIS Ranks[]

Working on the section for ranks in Discovery... feel free to help OvBacon^(Talk) 03:59, October 5, 2017 (UTC)

Even though it is unclear what level of admiral Cornwell is I have made the assumption of vice admiral but will update when things become more clear. OvBacon^(Talk) 15:53, October 11, 2017 (UTC)

Isn't Tilly a 4th-year Cadet or a Cadet, 4th-year, rather than a "Cadet 1st class"? -- Compvox (talk) 16:39, October 11, 2017 (UTC)

Cadet class rank titles are correlated in the real world as (freshman) 1st year is Msm 4th, (sophomore) 2nd year as Msm 3rd class, (Junior) 3rd year as Msm 2nd Class, and non-cadet-officer (senior) 4th years as Msm 1st class. USNA https://www.usna.edu/UniformRegs/Chapter3-InsigniaAndDecorations/class-rank-insignia.php USAFA uses stripes by year and classes from freshman = Cadet 4th class to Senior = Cadet 1st Class. (Wikipedia has a well sourced article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Academy_Cadet_Insignia ) USMA uses cadet grades in all years, but the hat insignia is by year. (No handy cite.) Akaramis (talk) 06:43, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

As far as I know she has only referred to herself as "Cadet Tilly" without any indication of her grade. But in line with previous shows, think of Cadet First Class Nicholas Locarno from TNG, it would be most likely that she is 1st class given the 4 lines and this would also be in line with how most current military organizations rank their cadets. OvBacon^(Talk) 23:20, October 11, 2017 (UTC)

Locarno, right. -- Compvox (talk) 07:38, October 16, 2017 (UTC)

DIS Enterprise Rank Colour[]

They seem to be using the same style of rank insignia as the Kelvin Timeline movies, thick and thin bars, however, it looks like the rank insignia matches the colour of their department. Nhan's looked to be red, Pike's were gold, though Connolly's seemed to be silver. Thoughts? --Tuskin38 (talk) 20:17, February 8, 2019 (UTC)

I guess it is only good to have a response so things don't seem to be unresolved. The colors are gold, silver and bronze (which looks redish). Otto Vonbacon ❯❯❯ Talk 03:52, February 23, 2020 (UTC)

Season 3 flag ranks[]

See Talk:Starfleet uniform (32nd century).

TNG Commodore & Admiralty[]

The It's A Wrap auction has 5 grades of late TNG boxed pips - one to five pips in a box. This should be noted on the extra insignia - it's not just extrapolation, the insignia were made by production. Akaramis (talk) 03:42, February 21, 2019 (UTC)

Anything not used on screen is not part of canon and thus really hard to quantify as something else. I do not know what "5 grades of late TNG boxed pips" is and so without any actual imagery or description it is hard to say if it needs an extra mention (could the five pips be 4 solid pips and one with a black center so that all ranks from ensign to captain can be made with this combination?!). Otto Vonbacon ❯❯❯ Talk 06:25, February 23, 2020 (UTC)

TOS Movies Era Admiralty insignia[]

Again, the It's a Wrap Auction Catalogue has all 5 grades of flag officer insignia as a set... and they do not match what's on the ranks page. The graphics present have the wrong proportions for several, and the progress is 2 darts (commodore) 3 darts (not specified) 4 darts (rear admiral), 4 darts with spikes between and center square (vice admiral) and 4 darts with wreath connecting the outside of the darts (Fleet Admiral). While the prop department often fails to grasp the subtleties of real ranks, they do at least have a clear visual progression; all are worn, so these must have appeared on background extras.

Set Image | StarTrekPropCollector.com Admiralty rank set image page
Set "Item" | StarTrekPropCollector.com Admiralty rank set aution item entry
Commodore item: | StarTrekPropCollector.com Commodore rank set page Akaramis (talk) 01:20, August 19, 2019 (UTC)

Again, canon is what was clearly shown in the shows or mentioned very clearly. Something auctioned off is not canon and the ranks shown have been seen in the movies/shows and have been described in The Star Trek Encyclopedia as such. Otto Vonbacon ❯❯❯ Talk 06:28, February 23, 2020 (UTC)

Implied ranks, and other removed bits[]

In trying to whittle uncited speculative language out of the article, it's possible I removed a point that could be cited and valuable;

• Dialogue from Star Trek: Enterprise indicated that the "four star" rank of admiral also existed in the United Earth Starfleet, but no character was shown holding this rank. (Uncited)
• Most reference manuals, however, state that the gold pips [vs. the silver pips] were used all along to denote rank on Starfleet uniforms of this era.
• Another array of insignia which the viewing audience never was able to see were the full spectrum of enlisted insignia patches designed for Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. In all, the costume designers for the show developed rank patches for every enlisted rank from petty officer, 3rd class to master chief petty officer. The budget of the show, however, prevented mass production of these insignia and, other than Miles O'Brien and Dorian Collins, no enlisted personnel appeared wearing the following collar patch enlisted ranks...
• Chief O'Brien's senior chief petty officer pin was the only badge ever shown on camera, although the Deep Space Nine costume designers had designed a system covering all ranks between petty officer 3rd class up to master chief petty officer.
• Chief Burke's rank insignia in "Nor the Battle to the Strong" was not entirely visible.
• Implied ranks
  • Several insignia patterns were designed and created by the producers of Star Trek films and television series, although the full rank spectrum never appeared on camera. The first such pattern was the full array of Theiss-designed flag officer insignia which appeared in Star Trek: The Original Series. Dialogue from the first-season episode "Space Seed" revealed Starfleet admiral ranks as high as fleet admiral, but the highest on-screen rank was a simple admiral (bearing vice-admiral insignia according to costume notes). In modern USN ranking, fleet admiral is a special rank earned during wartime only, bearing gold sleeve cuffs in one two-inch-wide stripe with four ½-inch-wide stripes, and five five-pointed silver stars in a tight circle upon gold shoulder boards. Five silver stars also appear on the uniform shirt collar in the same pattern as the shoulder boards.**Including the official insignia designed by Theiss, the full range of admiral insignia from the Original Series is as follows: [gallery removed]
  • Script notes and costume design templates from Star Trek: The Motion Picture also provide insignia patterns for the first three Starfleet flag ranks. The senior ranks of admiral and fleet admiral, although definite to exist, were not discussed in the film leaving the question open as to how the insignia for these two ranks may appear. The rank of commodore has been used on and off in modern nautical military services (US Navy, US Coast Guard), with the rank being called "rear admiral lower half" (see below) when not used as "commodore". Currently, the proper name for this rank is "rear admiral lower half" and has the insignia of one two-inch-wide gold stripe on the sleeve cuffs, and one silver star on gold shoulder boards, and one star worn on the shirt collar. (There is no change to the naming of the two-star rank of "rear admiral" regardless of whether "commodore" or "rear admiral lower half" is used for the "one-star" rank.) [gallery removed]
  • The first season of Star Trek: The Next Generation showed admiral ranks ranging to vice admiral; however admiral and fleet admiral were never seen on camera. Surviving script and costume notes indicate the following pattern for the first season admirals of The Next Generation. [gallery removed]
  • During the entire run of The Next Generation, two flag ranks which were never seen on camera were that of the one star admiral rank, which would have been properly referred to as "rear admiral lower half", using the "boxed pip" insignia, as well as a Starfleet fleet admiral. Costume notes, in particular those of Michael Okuda, provide the insignia for these two ranks. A similar matter also arose during Star Trek: Enterprise when the ranks of full admiral and fleet admiral were never seen, although they were discussed, leaving costume notes from the series as the only known source for how these insignia would appear. Also never seen on screen is the rank of lieutenant junior grade in the Starfleet insignia rank system used in the TNG episodes "Future Imperfect" and "Parallels". This rank is implied since that system paralleled the "pip" system used in the rest of the series.
  • In all, the following five insignia never appeared on camera and thus are not considered as canon material; however, in modern nautical military services they are real ranks: [gallery removed]
  • The rank systems used in 2009's Star Trek were based on the rank system used in TOS. The insignia used for the 2230s Starfleet uniform aboard the USS Kelvin in the beginning of the film would seem to contain two ranks that were not seen on screen, lieutenant junior grade and commander. The full system would then appear as: [gallery removed]
  • However, Chakotay was a commissioned Starfleet officer with a rank of lieutenant commander prior to his defecting to the Maquis, so gaining a Starfleet captain's rank wouldn't be an issue. Behind the scenes, a provisional captain's rank insignia, featuring four solid gold lines, was designed by Jim Magdaleno, despite it never appearing on camera. (The Official Star Trek: Voyager Magazine issue 1, p. 72)

- AJHalliwell (talk) 20:24, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

I struck two that can "go away".

Though I am not entirely sure what the Admiral reference from ENT is trying to say exactly, I managed to account for all references to the rank, and only two were made in reference to just the rank (as not a title tied to a name) and one was an insult, the other was about a rumored promotion.

I found an image that the insignoa in question Burke is wearing can be seen. So it's a bit of a nonissue, that confirms what has only been hearsay for the better part of 15 years. –Gvsualan (talk) 01:39, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

My best guess is that is referring to "Rank at retirement: Admiral" from Archer's personnel file, but that would not call for use of dialogue or quotation marks around "four star." - AJHalliwell (talk) 02:02, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Files removed, see Memory Alpha:Files for deletion/Speculative rank insignia. –Gvsualan (talk) 18:12, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

DIS admiral ranks[]

Where did the rank-to-insignia relationships for DIS seasons 1 and 2 admiral ranks come from? Right now, it's like this:

Flag officer ranks

Rear admiral	Vice admiral	Admiral

. . . but things would make way more sense like this:

Flag officer ranks

Vice admiral	Admiral	Fleet admiral

So where did the above correlations come from? Was some admiral referred to by full rank and I've just forgotten, or what? 🖖 Mr. Starfleet Command (open a channel • contributions • activity) 16:04, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I was just looking through this talk page and found that in an earlier section User:OvBacon said that they just assumed that Admiral Cornwell was a vice admiral. No rationale was given. Am I to take it that this is the reason for this, that it was just an assumption? If so, what was the rationale? If not, what was the reason? If this was the reason and there was no rationale, we should rework it. There is now a lot of evidence that my above rank–insignia correlations are correct. (There are six deltas in each "branch". When just the bottom two are gold, it signifies you are a fleet captain. Thus, commodore would be the bottom four, rear admiral the bottom six, vice admiral the bottom eight, admiral the bottom ten, and fleet admiral all twelve.) But if there's any convincing evidence otherwise, could someone please comment it below? 🖖 Mr. Starfleet Command (open a channel • contributions • activity) 00:46, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

OK, I'm thinking it makes sense for this to be changed to the way I suggested above. I won't do it just yet in case anyone objects, but if no one does in the next week, I will change it. BTW, I also left a message on OvBacon's talk page, but they haven't responded.

So please leave a message here if you object to me changing this because a) there is a real reason for it to be how it is or b) because I would be violating some rule I'm unaware of. Thanks . . . 🖖 Mr. Starfleet Command ^{(talk • contribs)} 23:40, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

OK, it's been a week, so I just started implementing the changes. 🖖 Mr. Starfleet Command ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:43, 9 August 2023 (UTC)